Arsenal shouldn’t bother with the Champions League as the Europa League is their ‘level’, while ‘petulant’ Roy Keane is ‘past’ his ‘sell-by date’…
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Arsenal could ‘become the Sevilla of England’…
I don’t understand Arsenal fans who are upset about not winning the league. Their squad is sh*te and they haven’t been a major force in the league consistently for over 70 years.
Arsenal were a top side in their heyday from 1930 to 1953 when they won the league 7 times. Since then, apart from a couple of brief spurts in the league under George Graham and peak Wenger, they’ve been mainly an FA Cup team. They’ve won 11 FA Cups since the 1950’s but haven’t won the league for 21 years.
Since 1953, the FA Cup is the only trophy Arsenal have excelled in with just one European trophy and 2 league cups in their entire history and only 6 league titles in 72 years.
Arsenal fans complaining about not winning the league is like me complaining that Emma Watson doesn’t want to date me. I mean, does she think she’s too good for me or what?
Wenger’s biggest mistake at Arsenal was always qualifying for the Champions League. It’s crazy that they keep trying to qualify for the Champions League which they will never win. They should be taking the financial hit and trying to win the Europa League, that’s their level. They wont win the Premier League this century but they could potentially become the Sevilla of England if they play their cards right.
Ben
READ: ‘No-one will remember’ this Arsenal side because of ‘idiot’ Arteta’s ‘failures’
Keane vs Bruno
Huge news this Friday: apparently Roy Keane doesn’t like Bruno Fernandes and thinks he’s a crap Captain. SHOCK!
This seems to be a common belief and fair enough. Since Bruno has been captain, United have been turd. The only thing he appears to be leading us to is relegation (I’ll come back to that).
However, whilst the myriad issues at the club are well known and undoubtedly the root cause of United’s demise, there are some holes in the arguments put forth on that podcast.
Keane’s entire argument seems to be based on Bruno not being some sort of action man. “You want a man who’s gonna take some action”. Well what do you mean Roy? Like, scoring a free kick to spark an unlikely comeback? Setting up three goals in a game (although Bruno only got the credit for one assist against Ipswich)? Running your socks off when your team’s down to ten men? Bruno does pretty much more of anything than any other United player, including scoring goals and running. Seems like he is an “action man” after all.
But when Roy mentions Tony Adams, it becomes clear what he really means is a player who is aggressive. Someone who likes to get involved in a tussle and possibly leave a few reducers on other players. Well that’s not Bruno and really, is that anyone in modern football these days? Feels a bit anachronistic to be fair. Maybe Casemiro can be like that? Sergio Ramos? But their careers are basically over. Kyle Walker was captain at City and the only thing I think of when I think of him is when he dived because Hojlund breathed on him. Liverpool captain Van Dijk is tough, sure, but he doesn’t go around trying to injure people like Keane did.
We’ll all remember Roy as probably the best United captain there ever was. But it’ll be based on what the club won which wasn’t entirely down to him. In fact given how often he was sent off and how often he was injured you could question (with your tongue firmly placed in your cheek) how essential he actually was. Keane managed 30 league games or more on just three seasons in his 12 at United (one was the first double, the second was the treble. The third was nothing). Bruno has never managed fewer than 35 in any of his full seasons at the club. He may not be a rough sod, but at least he’s actually available. In fact that’s probably why he’s captain: he’s the only reliable player in the whole squad.
Jill Scott has a slightly different argument (when she wasn’t being spoken over): that she didn’t like Bruno’s pointing at his team mates. Let’s compare that to Roy Keane, just for a laugh. Keane didn’t just point at his team mates, he got in physical confrontations with them. By the end he was calling them out on TV. Roy was allowed to do this because of the culture at United at the time and he will probably tell you himself it was because he was keeping up the standards. I don’t see why Bruno can’t do the same, except of course, unlike Roy Keane who was playing with world class players weekly, none of the players around Bruno match his standards.
There was also some chat about petulance. So by definition this means Bruno acts in a childish or bad tempered manner. If the shoe fits, Bruno should wear it. But let’s remind ourselves of the three core members of that podcast:
Jamie Carragher – threw a coin into the crowd, spat out of his car window into another car.
Gary Neville – constantly complained on the pitch, once banned for humping the air against Liverpool. So grumpy he’s created a permanent dent between his eyebrows from frowning
Roy Keane – Mr Angry. At least once deliberately injured a player. Sent off 13 times. Constantly shouting at people. Chased referees around the pitch. Left the Ireland squad before WC2002. Injured himself trying to “do” another player. Still bitter and angry about the way he left United.
Keane and Neville were both club captains. And good ones. Undoubtedly they were also petulant. They didn’t flap their arms about, they just shouted in people’s faces. I think the argument that Bruno cannot be a good captain because he is petulant is also completely defeated.
United are a mess from the bottom to the top. The players don’t need a Roy Keane calling them to action and breaking people’s legs, they need a Bruno who can drag them to a result through discreet acts of skill, availability and a lot of running around. They need reliability. We’re not at a point where we need someone to maintain already high standards. We need someone who can drag the team to enough results to stay in the league while we sort the mess out. He’s proving capable of that.
I don’t think we will win the league whilst he is our regular playing captain, and probably not while he is at the club (we’re so far away). I’m not even convinced we will play our best football with him in the team, though we will need to sign more players for that to happen. But to completely butcher a phrase and concept, he’s not the captain we deserve, he’s the one we need right now. We’d be in a proper relegation battle without him.
There’s also something to say about pundits having a sell-by date which Keane, Neville and Carragher have all passed, but I’ll save that for another day.
Ashmundo
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Man Utd = Biggest banter club in England
Going to make this a quick one but just wanted to call out some more absolute nonsense. Do people live in their own heads and create these fake narratives. I swear it’s always United fans.
“At least United, as the biggest banter club in England, win a trophy every few years to keep the trolling and banter era alive on both sides of the fence”
You’ve been the biggest banter club in England since Fergie left. These trophies you’re going on about? 1 FA Cup, 2 League Cups and a Europa League. Arsenal in that period have won 4 FA Cups and have been a lot better in the league for the majority of that time.
“Here it’s just sad to mock Arsenal when they themselves are not winning sh*t and still choose to believe they are a great team with “potential”
Who is “they”? Are you talking about the fans or the players. I don’t think normal Arsenal fans are under any illusions. We had two good seasons followed by a disappointing one. There was absolutely nothing in it last year. You’re making it out as if we are United. Most weekends are enjoyable for us. In the context of the injuries and form, I’m happy we can still remain second. There’s no chance in hell we could’ve won the league. It seems like you want everyone to be hounding their manager out like United fans do but pretend not to.
Looking forward to United beating Fulham and claiming they’re back!
Dion
It turns out Tickers is NOT a Liverpool fan…
Good grief; how does someone read content from Dave Tickner and conclude he’s a Liverpool fan??? I’ve also been a reader of the website for more than 20 years and I have never encountered a writer so incredibly happy to wear their club allegiances on their sleeve. Spoiler; it isn’t the Scousers!
In case it isn’t clear, a friend and I once played a drinking game where we read a week’s worth of F365 content and took a shot every time we encountered a Dave Tickner piece that shoehorned in a reference to “stupid Tottenham”, “Dr Tottenham” or “Spursy” in a completely unrelated section or paragraph. We both required significant medical attention.
Maybe it isn’t clear to those who (unlike Mr Tickner and me) haven’t suffered the agonising disappointment of Spurs’ endless trophy drought and relentless cycle of hope and crushing disappointment for 30-odd years. That nagging earworm of the North London stupidity that focuses every footballing thought through a prism of just what it means for, or how it will be impacted by, the Premier League’s greatest underachievers is something that only Tottenham supporters can truly understand.
Chris Bridgeman, Kingston upon Thames
READ: Ten players returning from injury to shape the race for Champions League football
Stop focusing on the manager
In response to Jason Soutar’s “listicle”…
The very idea that managers are entirely responsible for recruitment at premier league clubs is a complete joke. Times have changed.
Sure, managers have some say but it has become clear that the best clubs have a very influential and competent director of football!
Look at Liverpool, years of consistent identification and signing of high ceiling players has meant Liverpool will win the league, with “Slot” virtually making no signings this year.
Look at City – same as above with a transitional season, the season the DofF announcing his departure.
Lastly, look at Manchester United for the counter case; Reliant on a rotating door of managers who dictate playing systems and sign players, they have spent outrageously with little to show for it over the years while lurching from one playing style to the other. Dan Ashworth – leaving is so damning.
As a wise Jose once said: “… Football heritage, investments from the past” in reference to the key determinant of Man City’s success over the past decade.
Until English fans and the media change their focus from 100% accountability on everything happening at the club on ” the manager” to the whole football operations team, nothing will change.
Pey [You really think Graham Potter had any say on Chelsea signings?]
If you’re disappointed, you’re not a fan…
Ugh, I have no time for ‘fans’ like Shiraz. It’s kind of like the rich bloke that gets disappointed because he wanted a red Maclaren super car and had to ‘settle’ for a blue one.
7 teams have won the Premier League title in the 32 years of the current competition. That raises to 9 if you go back 40 years and 12 if you go back 50 years. You have to go back an additional 13 seasons to find the next unique winner.
If you take the 3 teams that have one-off title wins in the Premier League, 4 teams have dominated the title over the last 30 odd years. To put it mildly, it’s a big bloody deal.
So to come out and say you’re underwhelmed is the height of hubris and I’ve got no time for it. It’s one thing to say that the 2019-20 title felt a little off with the Covid break and the surreal title-clinching celebration, but even that one, almost 30 years in the making, was a big deal. If we do see this through it should be savoured because:
A new manager is picking up the mantle after a disappointing end of last term. The contribution of 3 players who will go down in Liverpool history, all, perhaps for the last time putting on performances that will deliver that title. A potential title celebrated in front of supporters in a newly expanded Anfield. A title win that is celebrated by a proper parade.
If you’re genuinely going to be underwhelmed by any of that, then what is the point of being a football fan?
Mark LFC (Heck, I’ll take year after year of ‘underwhelming’ title wins going forward please)
READ: Ranking Premier League clubs by how much they should give a damn about the FA Cup
Arsenal/Liverpool comparison
First of all, Shiraz has clearly drunk far too many bottles of himself. Complaining that a trophy that remains unwon as yet hasn’t been exciting enough or something? I’m not a big fan of the term plastic (possibly because I fall under some definitions) but that’s possibly one of the weirdest takes I have even seen on here, and that’s saying something.
And talking of weird takes, does anyone actually get what Tom’s point was? Arsenal and Liverpool spent similar amounts with the first four/five years of Arteta and Klopp, and the only actual difference here is luck? Liverpool weren’t lucky to get a king’s ransom for Coutinho, it was incredibly savvy business, as was buying Allison and Van Dijk with the proceeds.
And let’s look at Robertson. Does anyone think that he would have been anything but a decent journeyman footballer if he hadn’t ended up at Klopp’s Liverpool?
And he is really hung up on Salah, whilst trying to pretend he isn’t. Great teams have great players, it’s an integral part of the process. Take Cantona out of Ferguson’s United and Henry out of Wenger’s Arsenal, and both teams only have a fraction of the success they had. So what is the point here, exactly?
And btw Tom – 2015-2018 is four years, but 2019-2023 is five years – I wonder if Liverpool turning a profit in that fifth year is the reason for this “error”. It is also a tiny bit suspicious that 2024’s outlay of £230m for Rice, Havertz and Timber isn’t deemed worthy of inclusion? That’s disingenuous at best.
All of this can be filed under mental gymnastics that Arsenal fans are using to excuse Arsenal’s underwhelming season, but a truth is that they were a whisker away from the title last season, and they’ve had two transfer windows and spent 100m for the team to take step backwards. This doesn’t mean that Arteta should be replaced – that would be insanity right now – but how many more unsuccessful seasons does he have in him before the tide turns? Arsenal became a top four regular and an occasional cup winner under Wenger, and that wasn’t good enough (and to be fair, he was stagnating and a change was necessary), and they are only one of those now.
Liverpool’s success – such as it is – has been borne out of the club being run incredibly well. As as for luck – I’ll leave this one with Gary Player (although I thought Ferguson said something similar but maybe not):
“The harder you work, the luckier you get”.
There’s no chance Arsenal should be getting rid of Arteta, but there is a distinct chance they will in two year’s time if the Groundhog Day pattern persists.
Mat (delighted that Liverpool have a weekend off, if not necessarily because of the reason for it)
Dear Tom,
I read your letter, you raise some valid points but you do fudge the margins a little at times.
Let’s make it more simple – what is your definition of success? And has Arteta lived up to it?
Klopp promised Liverpool fans a title within four years and won the Champions League in that time. He also reached the Europa League final in the same time span and the League Cup final (losing both). Winning a Champions League is successful, by anyone’s measure.
As a fan of a team who also kept finishing second I can tell you that right now you feel like it’s good progress and you’re happy but in the event arteta doesn’t win anything you will absolutely look back on his time as a disappointment. I doubt you can find a single Liverpool fan who looks on our near miss seasons and thinks of them as successful and we still won two trophies in one near miss and were gunning for a quad in two of them until the last day of the season.
But we look back in those seasons as missed opportunities rather than successful campaigns. You will too once the Arteta goggles come off.
If your club built a statue of Arteta and etched beneath it “stopped arsenal being a dumpster fire and finished second a couple of times ” you would laugh (I hope). If you are happy with what he’s done that’s something nobody can argue with, but football success is a different thing than football happiness.
Let me close with a question – if god came and offered you 10 years of Arsenal winning domestic cups but middling league form OR 10 years of no trophies but you finish second every single year… Which would you take? My money is on you picking the trophies.
Lee
Incredulity isn’t an argument
While Tom was being taken to task (a little) for his reliance on gross spend rather than net spend to make his fallacious argument, I was more taken back by the idea that Liverpool are just lucky with their ‘scouting.’
This seems to be the modern narrative – the incredulity argument – based mostly on social media filling in for gaps in education. It’s the kind of argument that drives things like flat earth beliefs. “It’s incredible to think a man could have landed on the moon.” No amount of science can help – mostly because they can’t understand the science. Some wag several years ago said something along the lines of “who knew the internet was going to be about connecting all the village idiots in the world?”
Ian Graham recently wrote a book explaining how Liverpool have spent oodles refining their data science department to hone their scouting. It shows the progression over time, identifying gaps, explaining what can’t easily be determined from science alone and so on. But it is clear it isn’t just luck when it comes to selecting players. The well known fact that the ‘committee’ overrode Klopp to buy Salah should tell you something about their faith in their models. Imagine. Going up against a manager with a bigger than life character such as Klopp to say – no, you’re wrong – Salah is going to be a winner.
But yes, rely on your incredulity that they could use this process to find good players – but it isn’t an argument that just because you find it hard to believe it isn’t a real thing.
But if it’s any consolation just think that this could have been Spurs (not Tottenham) but Levy, in his infinite wisdom was also incredulous that it could work and Commoli was picked up by Liverpool and the we know how that story unfolds.
Paul McDevitt
